Ketosis for weight-loss, ketosis for neurological health, ketosis as it naturally happens to "help you through the night".... And yet, people talk about it as though it was a single entity, brought about in one particular way. It obviously isn't.
Back when Robert Atkins started talking about it, you didn't hear much from other sources. I suspect his main reason was to set minds to rest, who were concerned about the sound-alike (at that time) condition of ketoacidosis -- he needed to explain to people and their doctors that the phenomenon they were seeing with their keto-strips was NOT pathological. Since then (largely through the writings of Volek, Phinney, et al) it has turned into the cornerstone of low-carb weight-loss efforts.
After pursuing the pink pee-stick for a couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that it's getting WAY too much attention.
Getting into ketosis is an important milestone for previous predominantly-glucose-burners. When new to it, while they're still feeling crummy because their bodies are not adept at harvesting energy from burning their own fat, it's REASSURING to know that they're suffering for a good purpose! One can put up with more discomfort if one is aware that they're making progress thereby. (What's depressing is starvation on a conventional low-cal diet plan and having NO sign that anything good is happening.)
But ... WHY is that strip pink? Originally, in Atkins' day, it meant that you were burning your own fat -- YOUR FAT was the source of the ketones. Nowadays, more often than not, the ketones are being manufactured from the fat YOU ARE EATING. It's coming from the coconut oil in your fat-bombs, from the butter on your eggs, from the MCT oil in your smoothie.
I suspect that courting high ketones without paying attention to the source of the ketones is slowing down a lot of people's weight loss!
The REASON we should be eating a certain (large) percentage of fat in our diets is because we want its satiating and energizing properties. Unless we're sick abed, we need to fuel ourselves, and we sure as hell don't want to be hungry. As soon as we have eaten the number of grams of complete protein our bodies want, we aim at "filling up" with fat in the place of the carbs we USED to be fueled by....
But to push ourselves to eat more fat than we really want to, because we haven't reached some rosy threshold of blood ketones? In my humble opinion -- MISTAKE.
If our aim is weight loss, we want our blood and urinary ketones to reflect how much of OUR OWN fat we're burning, not how much of a coconut's it is. ;-) To measure higher ketones when we're trying to treat a neurological problem is a whole 'nother issue!
"But to push ourselves to eat more fat than we really want to, because we haven't reached some rosy threshold of blood ketones? In my humble opinion -- MISTAKE."
ReplyDeleteTbh, I have never gotten into measuring ketones, and I don't really see the point. I do know that I feel considerably better on VLC than LC, but that's just me. I also feel better without vegetables. Clearly.
I also don't push myself to eat more fat at all. But I have noticed that cream and butter go down easier, in virtually unlimited quantities, compared to fatty meat. For a couple of years I did consume more than 2000 liquid kcals daily on top of my eaten diet (cream in coffee; butter in tea). I still reach half of that some days (just cream in coffee). I'm not pushing at all, it's just too easy. Perhaps that's the problem with isolated dairy fats in our context. Another story for Tibetans, say.
I'm not too worried because I'm not piling on the weight although prone to doing just that. I used to be pretty big, but lost all my weight due to illness, not dieting. Replacing carbs with fat hasn't subsequently led to huge regain, just a few kg's over the past 3 years.
I love this diet for its results, but also for its ease. I don't like to complicate it by measuring ketones or protein grams. I naturally eat lowish protein -- I certainly cannot eat huge steaks. I prefer a small, fatty one with a few oysters on the side.
Of course, I know not everyone sees it this way. Still, I believe there's something to keeping it simple.
[nodding] you seem to be "eating to appetite" but i sometimes do see people agonizing that they're not eating a large enough percentage of fat, and drinking cream and popping fat-bombs in an effort to increase it. i think, if one isn't honestly hungry, one shouldn't be working so hard to increase fat intake.
DeleteThe only time I ever used ketone strips was when I did a fat fast. They started out pale pink and went to dark purple. As I understand it, if you're keto-adapted, they don't turn purple unless you do something like that.
ReplyDeleteI don't push myself to eat fat or protein, either. If I feel like eating LC bread and butter (it's high fat), I eat it; if I want meat, I eat meat.
ah, but you're not one of those poor overweight people desperate to lose 50 pounds, either. remember Cranberry at Wooo's place? it's people like that, who will try ANYTHING to make progress, who are getting distracted by the ketone frenzy. i think that Atkins' original message has gotten lost -- that ketosis is a sign your body is using fat (converting it to acetate and butyrate), but what matters is what the source of that fat is.
DeleteA problem with doing research online is that now it's possible to easily get a hodge-podge of advice and cobble together your own plan. That's fine if you know what you're doing. Often, though, it's a dietary Frankenstein: Davis says eat all the nuts you want; most people say vegetables are freebies; the hard-core ketos say you need extra fat; and everybody knows that LC is high protein and you need lots of exercise to lose weight. There's nothing wrong with any of these things in isolation (except maybe high protein), but together, they don't form an integrated plan. You're right when you say that novices should find a plan, preferable one made by someone who works with patients, and follow it to the letter for awhile.
Deletewell put!!! that's it in a nutshell!
DeleteI agree that cream and butter and cheese could be easily over-consumed. I tried to replace my milk in coffee with cream but found I was drinking far too much of it. A small carton has around 1000 calories and I was easy downing that on top of my other food. I know milk has carbs but the cream was just too more-ish.
ReplyDeleteThe opposite is for me. If I put half and half I can't stop drinking it and I start to get the "hungees". But if I put heavy cream or coconut milk I get nauseaus easily if I drink too much.
DeleteI think you mentioned you have lost 100lbs? If I recall correctly when you have achieved such massive weight loss (which is splendid, btw :) ) it is easy to overeat anything due to leptin deficiency.
i don't know about you all, but isocalorically i STILL lose weight better when i get my fat from within my beef and lamb, and not from "added fat" as from coconut oil or dairy. nor, interestingly, from eggs -- i lose best on a diet of meat, with black coffee and a few non-starchy vegetables OCCASIONALLY as a garnish.
Delete...of course, i mean fatty meat like 75% hamburger with the grease poured over the top, or a prime ribeye. the fat content, without any outside assistance, was always around 70% back when i tracked it meticulously on FitDay.
DeleteThis is true Almond I can overeat anything. When I was larger I was fussy and hedonistic with regards to what I ate. Now I find a safe food and before long I start obsessing and overeating it be it onions or brussel sprouts or tuna.. I think fat my be insulinegic for me; I can eat it until the cows come home, no nausea or satiety. CO in the mornings made me ravenous. The only food that satiates me is animal protein; it is the only food I can't overeat and so I seem to be naturally heading towards being a carnivore.
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ReplyDeleteIt seems I'm shipwrecked at 300 pounds after losing 75 pounds. Haven't lost a pound in over a month. Eating the same foods I lost the weight on. Crap. I still feel awesome. Very energetic and have awesome stamina. I can't complain except being closer to a normal weight has made me want to be normal that much more. I'm six feet tall and very broad. At 250 pounds I feel like I would look rather lean. I'm eating six eggs and a half pound of sausage for breakfast. Lunch is a salad with balsamic vinaigrette and chicken. Dinner is pot roast or ribeye with broccoli. Black coffee with all three meals. I started in February lost all the weight by April. Haven't lost a pound since. Am I just going to weight 300 pounds my whole life? I could keep up eating this way for t h e rest of my life. I really enjoy the food I'm eating. If any of y'all have any ideas, please help.
ReplyDeleteyou made a lot of changes to your body in a short period of time. the body loves homeostasis. put them all together and they spell "plateau."
Deletethis is normal and predictable, and brightly paints the CICO people as WRONG. ;-) but think about it -- a body 75 pounds heavier needs more energy to run it on a daily basis, and a body 75 pounds lighter takes less energy to move around. as such extreme weight loss continues, the body has to "stop and catch its breath" from time to time. at each point, diet and movement probably need to be tweaked.
feeling "awesome" is great progress. congratulations. now, back to work....
it occurs to me that your diet is probably still heavy on omega-6 fats. you might see improvement if you replace pork sausage in the morning with one made of beef -- and make sure there are no nasty additives and fillers. do you make your own vinaigrette, or buy it? it SO easy -- and commercial products usually use soybean or other horrible oil! ...and don't be fooled by those "with olive oil" products either -- usually there's only a trace.
the bit is, not only do polyunsaturates impede the work of thyroid hormone in your cells and thereby slowing your metabolism, omega-6 is specifically damaging to your liver.
Your on to something I'm afraid. It's just so hard to avoid commercially prepared foods like salad dressing and who ever saw beef sausage at Wal-Mart? I have been trying to cut down on omega six but it's in everything. I do supplement omega three but I know it's not good enough. I'm going to hang in there and try to cut down on that stuff. It's everywhere just like gluten. Sometimes it feels like just avoiding gluten is an impossible task. And avoiding omega six and it's like there's nothing left. Thanks for the advice.
Deletegood luck -- i hope it helps!
DeleteIt sounds like a lot of protein. Jimmy Moore broke through his stall by reducing protein and increasing the percentage of fat. This calculator might help, and there's surely stuff on Jimmy's site about his experience:
Deletehttp://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/DietMakeupCalc.php
Re: salad dressing, I'm working on a new recipe that's mostly saturated fat with just a smidgen of omega-six and VLC. I'll post it when it's done.
Does pasture-raised pork have much omega six? I'd think it would be fairly easy to find pastured sausage in Georgia. There's a song that starts, "Down in Georgia at hog killin' time..." Tess may remember it. ;)
any song with lyrics like "hog killin' time" or "deevorce" or dogs'n'guns'n'pickuptrucks are strictly prohibited in my domain. ;-) but even pastured pork and poultry are higher in linoleic acid than is conventional beef. Rick speaks of doing a lot of his shopping in Walmart. beef bratwuerst might be his best choice.
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DeleteThanks girls. I'm going to do it. I definitely need your help. Going to do a web search for Jimmy Moore. Look for any books he wrote. I'm a book guy. The book that got me this far was "Grain Brain" by Dr Pearlmuter. It's actually not a weight loss book I'm not even sure why I picked it up. I followed his no gluten advice and I'm extremely pain free to boot. Gluten was slowly killing me.
DeleteGrain Brain is a worthwhile book, and it doesn't hurt to know that the repercussions of wheat ingestion go far beyond fat collection. the most useful and faultless weight-loss book I've found, though, is still Strong Medicine, available here: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015003228171;view=1up;seq=7
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